Just a few things that I have to overcome...

[sweetangel]

So I've read a ton of things (Scott Hahn, early church fathers, etc.) and I've even met with a priest who was very good at explaining things. I just have a few things to overcome that are huge struggles right now. They may or may not have been struggles for anyone else, but if so can anyone explain how they got through and the the light bulb went off? The papacy (suprisingly) made sense, the Eucharist, confession, a lot fits when you think about it logically and historically. I'm having a hard time with infant baptism. It makes sense when put in the context of original sin, but that is still a struggle as well. Did anyone else have a hard time with this? I feel stuck in the middle right now. I'm not quite committed to everything that the Catholic Church teaches, but I can't take a lot of things about the CoC anymore either. I've been to a few Masses and I feel so pulled, like I should be there, that this is where I'm suppossed to be, but I can't wrap my head (and my heart) around some things yet. Did anyone else struggle with these and other things about the Catholic Church?

[Joseph the Worker]

Although I didn't personally struggle with these issues, I can definitely see where you are coming from. Could you be a little more specific about exactly what "bothers" you about original sin? I think for me, one of the best ways to help me understand the Catholic teaching on it, for instance, was to contrast it with Calvinist teaching.

[Cheryl S.]

For me, infant baptism makes sense because Judaism was similarly structured - boys were circumcised on the 8th day; there was no question that Jewish parents would be raising Jewish children. There were provisions for adult circumcision too, but you see this for adult converts (similarly to adult baptism in the NT and in the Catholic church). Probably the best parallel situation to baptism as described in the NT is what was seen when Abraham was given the instruction to do so - for indeed, this is where we see the beginning of Jusaism as a specific group. He and all males in his household were circumcised - just as you hear mention of whole households being baptized. I would *love* it if there were specific mention in the NT, but not being there doesn't mean it didn't happen - but more likely that it just didn't seem something that needed to be specifically mentioned. See also Paul's reference to a Christian staying with their non-Christian spouse so that their children might be sanctified; this, to my mind, likely refers to the expectation that the believing spouse would be raising them in the church, and would have them baptized.

The teaching of original sin, I waffle on a bit - but it DOES make sense that we do live in a fallen world, and therefore have the temptation and capacity to sin.

I'm sure someone else will be able to give you more specific teachings and references, but that's my general view of why infant baptism, for me, makes sense.

[cvbreno]

I struggled a lot with infant baptism, pouring for baptism, the veneration of Mary, and a few other things. I think it's normal to have some difficult road blocks on this journey, especially since we've been taught from our youth that we have to understand and prove every detail of our faith from scripture.

I can't suggest any magic bullets, and it sounds like you are using good resources in your study. For me, accepting infant baptism was mostly a matter of coming to the realization that the CoC position on original sin (that there isn't any) was mostly a reaction to the error of the Calvinist "total depravity" concept which we usually focused on. Both viewpoints are in conflict with many centuries of consistent Catholic teaching. Some Catholic apologists point out that the stories in Acts about the "whole household" being baptized imply that children and infants must have been included, but I find that argument relatively weak because the implication is not necessary. Cheryl's explanation is more compelling, comparing baptism to circumcision. Many aspects of the Church's practices and liturgy are derived directly from Jewish rites, so this makes a lot of sense. Finally, once I recognized and accepted the Authority of the Church as established by Christ, I was able to submit to the authority and theological expertise of the Church, knowing that I don't have to understand everything completely to accept "all that the Church proposes for my belief." This is not to say that I put my own reason on hold, but rather that I accepted that I could be a Catholic and continue to learn more about these things, which I have done. I understand baptism now, and I pray to Mary too. Some Catholic "small-t" traditions are still ucomfortable for me, though.

I was probably more uncomfortable with pouring for baptism than infant baptism. I think the Orthodox churches still practice immersion (even for infants). If our local Orthodox church had not been so focused on their Greek ethnic heritage, I might have ended up there instead of looking at the Catholic church more closely. (I liked their a capella music better, too.) Some newer Catholic churches have bigger baptisteries for offering immersion as an option for baptism - our parish does this. The catechism admits that immersion represents the cleansing and death/burial/resurrection more fully than other modes, but again, I accept that the Church has the authority to determine the proper mode of baptism. After all, I'm not prepared to say that millions of otherwise faithful Christians baptized as infants by pouring over the past 2000 years are going to hell because of their ignorance. That would be unjust and inconsistent with what Jesus said about his Church. This was one of the absurd implications of CoC doctrine which pushed me toward learning more about early Church history and the Catholic Church to begin with.

I will pray for you on your journey -- you are on the right road!

~ Chris

[prairie]

Infant baptism was one of the first things I dealt with right before we left the COC. One of the most compelling arguments, IMO, was this: Imagine Peter talking to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. He talks to them about their history, their covenant, and tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of that covenant, and the way to enter the new covenant was through baptism. May of them respond to his sermon and ask for baptism. They will expect the new covenant to work much the same way as the old covenant: We'll be inducting heads of families, and their families. This is for us Jews. Etc. Now Peter tells them it's only for adults. Can you imagine the uproar that would have caused? We see the uproar caused when Peter takes the new covenant to the Gentiles. The complete absence of controversy over whether or not to include infants in the new covenant indicates that the approach to this issue did not change in the least.

It's an argument from silence, but frankly, I think it's reasonable to believe that since we don't have evidence of a change, then no change was made.

[sweetangel]

I think for me, the concepts of original sin and therefore infant baptism make sense. I think I understand it mentally right now, but having a hard time with the emotional and faith part of it. It's hard to change over twenty years of thinking on a subject, but I'm getting there, I hope! I never really thought about it before, but the more I read the Genesis account, it staring me in the face! God immediately put in to action a plan that was to save an entire mankind, not just Adam and Eve for their sins that they ACTUALLY committed, but for that something changed in the the relationship between mankind and God that couldn't be repaired without Christ. I can see it there almost spelled out in bold letters, but completely committing and submitting is the scary part. For me, that means I have to draw a line in the sand and there's no going back on that decision once it's made and that is terrifying. (Mainly, because then i have to tell my parents! ) So any words of wisdom on the faith struggles?

[mllevaleur]

You've probably already read it, but just in case, this article is a good overview of why infant baptism makes sense. What Prairie said is really one of the things that hit home for me as well, it makes no sense that the eligible recipients of the covenant would change in such a drastic way from the Old to the New and no word of it would be mentioned.

I think we absolutely all had certain doctrines we struggled with. There was that point where there was SO MUCH I was convinced on, but there were a few issues that I just still had a kind of knee jerk reaction to, even if intellectually I understood the Catholic view made sense. It was one of those things were I just had to trust that the overwhelming evidence was pointing me in the right direction, and that I had to just take that leap and trust that the Church knew more than I did. It was scary, yes, taking that last kind of "final" step, that step where I knew there was no turning back, where I actually was going to be joining this great Church I'd been reading and studying about. And while I still had nagging uncomfort on a few things, what I felt when I pondered that decision ultimately was peace...and that's how I knew I was doing the right thing.

There's a quote from St. Augustine which says, "Seek not to understand so that you may believe, but believe so that you may understand." I have found this to be so true...there were so many things I was iffy about, but when I took them on faith, when I trusted the authority of the Church (after I'd become convinced of her God-given authority), when I chose to believe they were true, after a time these iffy issues became clearer and clearer and I did start to really understand them. I saw the wisdom and beauty from the inside out, in action, in the lives of faithful Catholics around me, and I couldn't ignore the Church's wisdom. You have to make that leap of faith at some point...it sounds to me like you're getting close.

What was extremely terrifying was the thought of telling my family, it's probably the biggest fear and anxiety I've ever known. And yet, in my heart I still had a sense of peace underneath the anxiety because I knew, again, that it was right. And meditating on Christ's sacrifice for me, and especially the scripture my own parents taught me about families being torn apart by division, but the importance of always putting God first, and the reward for doing just this, these verses brought me courage.

When the time comes, I'd just say, however you decide to tell your family, do it respectfully (I'm sure I don't even need to say that!), and as much as possible calmly. Prepare yourself for the absolute worst. Remember that if they start hurling wild accusations at you (you're turning your back on God/You've been brainwashed/you just want some thing you're not allowed to have in the CoC [alcohol/dancing/heathenistic lifestyle in general/insert crazy idea here]/etc), remember that they're doing that because they can't possibly accept that you actually believe Catholicism is true, and they're looking for any other explanation, however crazy. Remember that you're likely not going to be able to convince them of your sincerity (this was hard for me, it really stung that they'd rather believe I was a liar than believe I'd had a sincere conversion), at least not with words and not in a day, or a week, or a month, or a year. I think my family sees my sincerity now...but it took years. Sometimes you're going to have to walk away or stop engaging with them, and do so knowing they think awful things about you, and let them think those things. They may see their error in time, but it will be by your actions, not so much your words. During especially difficult times, the passage that speaks of such persecution was a great comfort, it was something I clung to.

Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt 5:11-12)

And of course, we'll be here to support you as you continue on your journey!

[Joseph the Worker]

As far as general doubts or concerns, a helpful thing I've done is the following:

When you have a doubt or such about a teaching of the Catholic Church, see if there are other teachings that you are certain are true. For me, for instance, I have a deep trust in the teaching of the Eucharist being the body and blood of Christ. Only the Catholic Church offers this to me (yeah, I know about the Orthodox being valid as well ). So, if I have a small doubt about anything (even if my senses are fooling me, say at adoration, or I am doubting something like the communion of Saints or original sin, or anything) then I just turn to John Chapter 6 and read it. When I see Christ's words so strong they remind me of a truth that cannot be found anywhere outside the Catholic faith. Then, I remember I can trust the Church on everything. Another good passage is when Christ tells the apostles they have the power to forgive sins.

[la bella vita]

I'm in the same boat as you, sweetangel - I'm still learning and wrestling with things and trying to wrap my brain around a new way of viewing things, but I also feel like I'm being pulled toward Catholicism. For all the reasons mentioned above, it was surprisingly easy for me to intellectually accept the idea of infant baptism, but emotionally there was something missing. Then I was at mass about two months ago and - surprise! - a baby was baptized and, after actually watching it all happen, I haven't had a single doubt in my mind about it. It's funny because I only go to mass once or twice per month and there are so many different mass times, but I ended up deciding to go that Sunday to that time and randomly ended up experiencing something that I now realize I really needed to see first hand. If there's any chance you can actually see an infant baptized, I would highly recommend that you jump at the opportunity.

[mllevaleur]

I ended up experiencing something that I now realize I really needed to see first hand.

Yes! This!! Intellectual argument and understanding only gets you so far...at some point, you have to move from cognitive awareness of teachings to actual experience of them. It's amazing how much this experiential side of things helped soothe those anxieties and mental knee jerk reactions for me.

[Joseph the Worker]

Having your own baby baptized helps to, so if you don't have one, go get to work

J/k but great advice from la bella vita

[Star]

One of the most compelling arguments, IMO, was this: Imagine Peter talking to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. He talks to them about their history, their covenant, and tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of that covenant, and the way to enter the new covenant was through baptism. May of them respond to his sermon and ask for baptism. They will expect the new covenant to work much the same way as the old covenant: We'll be inducting heads of families, and their families. This is for us Jews. Etc. Now Peter tells them it's only for adults. Can you imagine the uproar that would have caused? We see the uproar caused when Peter takes the new covenant to the Gentiles. The complete absence of controversy over whether or not to include infants in the new covenant indicates that the approach to this issue did not change in the least.

Wow, I'd never thought about that, but that's such a great point.

Infant baptism wasn't such a problem for me because of my time spent in the Methodist church, but the longer I'm a Catholic and the more I read about it, the more it really makes sense to me that there was no division on what age a person should/could be baptized.

[sweetangel]

I can't suggest any magic bullets

So there's not easy button?

I'm struggling with infant baptism right now because I have a toddler and we're planning on more kids later. I want to make as sure as possible that my son is right with God, whether that be adult baptism or infant baptism. I just want to know and be confident in the decision we make and right now I'm torn between the things that I am learning and the things that I have be instilled all my life. The more I read and study about the Catholic faith, the more I realize that I've been searching for those things all along and didn't know it. During mass I feel so pulled, like I should be there and should be a part of it. I want to be a part of it. During a coc service, all I do anymore is get frustrated with the arrogance and twisted scripture. I just don't know if I'm ready to walk away from it yet, but it's not going to be very long if I can get past a few of my lingering past ideas.

[cvbreno]

No easy button -- but the fact that you feel drawn to the Mass and the eucharist is a good thing! I well remember being there, feeling like the Holy Spirit was dragging me to the Catholic Church, with me kicking and fighting the whole way! My wife and I studied for months on our own without talking about it with our three kids (11, 13, and 15 at that time), until we were convinced that we had to be Catholic. The kids knew we disagreed with some of the things being taught at church, because we often talked about our concerns in the car after the sermon. We were getting really frustrated, as you are. One day my wife and I just sat down and agreed that we knew what we had to do and that there was no reason to wait any further. There were still some areas of uncertainty, like you are struggling with, but we had learned enough to accept the Church's authority and make the change. It's a HARD thing to do, to take that leap of faith away from what you have known your whole life, and face the consequences with your family, etc.

My wife had gone to daily Mass a few times, but I didn't visit a Catholic church or talk with a priest until we decided to make the switch. (I did watch the Mass on EWTN lots of times, and longed for the eucharist.) We announced and explained the decision to our kids the next Sunday, that we were going to the Catholic church from now on. They were surprisingly good about it, but they had lots of questions. The decision is painful and difficult, but we are so happy now, and relieved that we don't have to live in a state of cognitive dissonance anymore. We are truly at home now, and I can highly recommend that! We don't have to find the perfect interpretation by ourselves on every point of doctrine, and we don't have to bite our tongue during class, etc. (And we don't have to hide the wine glasses, LOL!).

I will continue to pray for you on your journey!

[Moodyblue]

I think we all (Protestant, cradle Catholic, adult converts, and newbies like me) struggle with some things . We would not be human if we did not. Sounds like you are where I was 6 months ago -- the first time I went to Mass. I felt such a connection to Jesus, I don't think I could have turned back regardless. I had some doubts (more like fears of what if the CoC was right and I was wrong?) as well as some difficulties with getting my husband's first marriage annuled so I could be baptised and remain in a state of grace. I tried to find another church I felt right in for over 20 years and never did. I got extremely depressed when I thought about not being Catholic.

All that to just say, follow your heart and pray. The Holy Spirit will point you in the direction you need to go. Don't be afraid to have doubts just don't let the doubts keep you from your journey wherever it may lead you. I hope and pray you find your way home to the Catholic Church as it sounds like that is where your heart is.

You are in my prayers.