Any exceptions?

[la bella vita]

I have a question on the teachings surrounding abortion (don't worry, I'm not attempting to argue that abortion is okay). Are there any exceptions allowed for when the mother's life is in danger (particularly when the child is going to die regardless)? I read this article and it seemed like there are no exceptions to the anti-abortion stance:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7930380.stm

Also on the subject, why are Catholics automatically excommunicated for having or participating in an abortion, but not for other sins (like rape or murder)?

[Joseph the Worker]

I have a question on the teachings surrounding abortion (don't worry, I'm not attempting to argue that abortion is okay). Are there any exceptions allowed for when the mother's life is in danger (particularly when the child is going to die regardless)? I read this article and it seemed like there are no exceptions to the anti-abortion stance:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7930380.stm

Also on the subject, why are Catholics automatically excommunicated for having or participating in an abortion, but not for other sins (like rape or murder)?

There are no exceptions whatsoever. You might be able to find an explanation of the excommunication question, but that is within the Church's disciplinary realm to decide, as it is not a matter of faith or morals.

[CanardMom85]

Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of the Brazilian archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho of Olinda and Recife at the center of a controversy over excommunications related to the case of an abortion performed on a 9-year-old rape victim. The 9 year old girl was not excommunicated.

The Catholic Church teaches that a person who commits a sin of grave matter must be fully conscious, or in this case, have a mature understanding of the act they are committing. Archbishop Cardoso said that “in order to incur an excommunication, it is required to have a full conscience of the act. In this sense, the Church is benevolent with the minors and the victims of abortion.”

“All those who approved, promoted and performed the abortion, incurred automatic excommunication, according to code 1398 of the Canon Law.”

This is a very interesting case to look up. It does show the one 'exception' because the girl could not have had mature understanding of the act.

[CanardMom85]

Also, it bares mentioning that in this case the step father was punished, obviously he could not receive communion in a state of moral sin and no doubt the penance for that was great since more than just prayers can be given as a penance. I read an article where the Pope spoke on the subject in the Texas Catholic Newspaper, but can't find a copy online. The Pope was not so harsh about it as the Archbishop Sobrinho.

[Joseph the Worker]

Good Call CanardMom! I sometimes forget to add in the conditions of something being thought out and meditated - mortal - because it has become second nature to me. But I forget that to others that distinction isn't as clear or known about.

[mllevaleur]

No, there are no exceptions, abortion is always and in every case the wrong choice. It is directly and intentionally taking a life.

That being said, if a mother's life is in danger, one can remove the child from her womb if need be (through induced labor or C-section), although this may, depending on the child's gestational age, end in death for the child. But at least in this instant, the intent is not to kill the child, it is to save both mother and child if possible.

This is different than giving drugs to directly kill the child, or killing the child in utero with instruments or injections and then extracting the child, etc. See the difference? There is an issue of intent here that is very important.

There is also the case of ectopic pregnancy, where an embryo implants in the fallopian tube and begins to grow there, which will eventually rupture the tube, potentially killing both mother and child. In this instance, the tube may be removed (with child inside), and yes the child will die, but again the intent here is to save the life of the mother, not to kill the child. If there were a way to replant the child in the womb or save it somehow this would be the best option, but because we aren't there technologically, the unfortunate and unintended side effect is the death of a child. This, however, is NOT an abortion, because the aim is not to kill the child. There are ways to kill the child (and thus save the tube) but this would be a form of abortion, because the intent would be to kill the child directly. This concept is what we call the principle of double effect. More on that here.

In the case mentioned, the first doctors the mother went to see said the girl was in no immediate danger and therefore would not do an abortion. So she went looking until she found docs that would. I can understand her duress and worry for her child, but directly killing both her grandchildren was not the answer, now the poor child will have to deal with this as well growing up. They could have watched the girl, made sure she was not in immediate danger, let the babies reach a gestational age where they are viable outside the womb if possible and then deliver them. (I believe she was already close to 5 months along anyway.) If there was danger to the girl, they could have delivered them early and done their best to save all 3 lives, rather than kill 2 of them directly and intentionally.

Also on the subject, why are Catholics automatically excommunicated for having or participating in an abortion, but not for other sins (like rape or murder)?

Mostly because there is still a recognition in our culture that murder and rape and many other sins, in general, are wrong. We don't have pro-murder or pro-rape rallies, or legislation trying to protect people who want to rape and murder. When the culture around us starts to try and re-write natural law, the Church steps up her reminders that, NO, no matter what our culture says, abortion is not ok, and the automatic excommunications are a reminder of the severity and grave immorality of abortion in a world that is trying to convince everyone it's ok. It's also because of the frequency and sheer grandeur of the problem, millions of children are being killed worldwide, likely more than other murders and rapes put together. It's a kind of prioritizing, the Church puts such severe canonical penalties on the act because it is such a huge problem, one of the biggest of our day. If this problem were to subside, and another to take its place, the discipline would likely change to reflect that, since this is just a disciplinary matter, something that could change if the moral climate ever changed.

[mllevaleur]

Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of the Brazilian archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho of Olinda and Recife at the center of a controversy over excommunications related to the case of an abortion performed on a 9-year-old rape victim.

Huh, I don't think I heard that he had resigned, interesting.

“All those who approved, promoted and performed the abortion, incurred automatic excommunication, according to code 1398 of the Canon Law.”

This is a very interesting case to look up. It does show the one 'exception' because the girl could not have had mature understanding of the act.

Right, it's written into the code to begin with that one must be of a certain age for particular codes/disciplines of canon law to apply.

[mllevaleur]

Also, it bares mentioning that in this case the step father was punished, obviously he could not receive communion in a state of moral sin and no doubt the penance for that was great since more than just prayers can be given as a penance. I read an article where the Pope spoke on the subject in the Texas Catholic Newspaper, but can't find a copy online. The Pope was not so harsh about it as the Archbishop Sobrinho.

Actually I'm not even sure the stepfather was Catholic, I read one report (it was from a German newspaper online, strangely enough) that mentioned he was a "devout evangelical," and evangelicalism is actually very popular in the area. If this is the case, there's not much the Church could really have done anyway since he is not under Catholic jurdisdiction, so to speak.

[Marcus]

Imagine for a moment. You and your friend, spouse, brother, sister...who ever... are caught in a terrible accident. Let's say the window of a car is the only way out and your friend is stuck in the way. You have a knife and could cut your way through him to save your own life. But he is still alive. What do you do? Morbid. But that's the point. Just because you can not physically see the life outside of the womb doesn't mean it is any less valuable. So if the mom's life is in danger, mom being the one trapped with the baby stuck in the window. Take the same story and replace "friend" with "child". Then replace "child" with baby. Get my drift? It can't maybe be a life or a complete life. What if your friend had that disease that didn't allow them to feel pain? Would it then be okay to cut your way through?

[prairie]

Also on the subject, why are Catholics automatically excommunicated for having or participating in an abortion, but not for other sins (like rape or murder)?

Actually, receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin is itself a grave sin. Any mortal sin must be absolved before receiving communion. Those sins may not automatically incur a formal excommunication, but you should not present yourself for communion until you've been to confession.

[sisna]

On the catholic channel, (can't remember the letters at moment) Mother Angelica was talking about going to a wake for a woman who had died in child birth. The woman already had two children, and had a difficult pregnancy with the third. The doctors and many of her friends suggested an abortion for her own health. She would not do it, because to her and her husband that little life was far too precious. Mother Angelica told her family that this woman was a martyr. She died for the faith, she would not have an abortion because she believed it was wrong, and she loved her child. This may be a sad story, but to me, that's a beatiful way to look at it. Women who try to have the child anyway, are truly martyrs, they die or risk death defending their unborn children and the faith that they hold so dear.

[mllevaleur]

Ever read about St. Gianna Molla? http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-gianna-beretta-molla/

[Joseph the Worker]

Ever read about St. Gianna Molla? http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-gianna-beretta-molla/

That's exactly what I was going to say!

[Marcus]

Also on the subject, why are Catholics automatically excommunicated for having or participating in an abortion, but not for other sins (like rape or murder)?

Actually, receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin is itself a grave sin. Any mortal sin must be absolved before receiving communion. Those sins may not automatically incur a formal excommunication, but you should not present yourself for communion until you've been to confession.

I think this part of the question was not answered as I understand it.

The reason Abortion receives automatic excommunication is a theological one rooted in the fact that the death is of an "innocent", one that has yet to live to sin. The most innocent of life is being crushed on a grand scale. Its not like people go around killing people in society. But those who do are also under serious sin, but less in the sense that the life of an adult is not considered an 'innocent". I'm sure you can find this on http://www.catholic.com. But Stephanie seems to live to post these types of things. Hint hint. I'd have to look it up. I listened to several syllogisms on the subject and I briefly explained the difference. I've never accepted abortion. The last child we had made me feel like I was about to have to make a decision on that. The thought of losing my wife was unbearable. But the thought of losing my child was equally bad. I have no idea what I would have done, only that I thank God he didn't lead me down that road. After our baby's birth, I dug deeper into the matter. A year and a half later, we're Catholic.

I'm ashamed of the thoughts I had during the birth. But I thought I was going to lose both of them. I believe the temptation would have been to save mom first. But like in a battle, no one knows what they'll do until they actually do it. That's what I mean. Thank God I didn't go down that path. I didn't know enough about moral theology to make such a decision. Either way would have put me in the nut house.